On 25 juil, 14:35, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 5:25*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > >news:3aM6m.5387$ - 2...
>
> > > > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > > > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > > > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would beadvisable
> > > > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > > > *suspensions"
>
> > > > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself,it will be
> > > > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness.."
>
> > > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > > I think we'regetting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > > Sp.
>
> > > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> > I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
> > really
> > tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
> > gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
> > intention
> > I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
>
> > I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
> > groups
> > spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
> > thread!-D)-
>
> There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
> translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
> yours.

That's right, I had to open a gmail account to be able to post here
and to read the full thread (I don't see my G posts on my standard
ISP account).
Anyway, that's not very important )
The post I refered to was the one including this proposal:

'To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the
thorough pratice of severe suspensions.'

And, don't mind, I understand why you think that was 'literal'
but there were real efforts to carry the original underlying
'venom' I thought Satie wanted to inject :-)

Cheers.

On Jul 26, 5:10*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
> On 25 juil, 14:35, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 5:25*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
> > > On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > >news:3aM6m.5387$ - 2...
>
> > > > > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > > > > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > > > > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > > > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > > > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible toearnestly
> > > > > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > > > > *suspensions"
>
> > > > > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > > > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, bygrave
> > > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > > > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > > > I think we'regetting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > > > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > > > Sp.
>
> > > > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > > > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> > > I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
> > > really
> > > tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
> > > gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
> > > intention
> > > I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
>
> > > I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
> > > groups
> > > spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
> > > thread!-D)-
>
> > There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
> > translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
> > yours.
>
> That's right, I had to open a gmail account to be able to post here
> and to read the full thread (I don't see my G posts on my standard
> ISP account).
> Anyway, that's not very important )
> The post I refered to was the one including this proposal:
>
> 'To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
> earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the
> thorough pratice of severe suspensions.'
>
> And, don't mind, I understand why you think that was 'literal'
> but there were real efforts to carry the original underlying
> 'venom' I thought Satie wanted to inject :-)
>
> Cheers.-

"Suspension" is a technical term in music theory, so it should be
avoided here. Also, in non-technical English, it doesn't carry the
sense of 'immobility'. Moreover, "immobility" really can't be used in
the plural in English, which may be the greatest problem in rendering
the passage. People can be in "states of immobility" from time to
time, but they can't be in "immobilities."

Of the translations we've seen here, the one that comes closest to
being an English rendering of the original is the first one quoted
above, except for the last two words, "serious immobilities," which
make no sense at all. As an experienced and published translator from
French, I have found that it is usually unwise to use the English
equivalent of a borrowed French word -- the nuances have almost always
diverged over the centuries since the word was first adopted into
English.

On Jul 26, 3:55*pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 5:10*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 25 juil, 14:35, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Jul 25, 5:25*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
> > > > On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > > >news:3aM6m.5387$ - 2...
>
> > > > > > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > > > > > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de sepréparer au
> > > > > > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > > > > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > > > > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > > > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > > > > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > > > > > *suspensions"
>
> > > > > > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > > > > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > > > > *immobilities"
>
> > > > > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > > > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > > > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > > > > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > > > > I think we'regetting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > > > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > > > > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > > > > Sp.
>
> > > > > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > > > > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> > > > I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
> > > > really
> > > > tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
> > > > gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
> > > > intention
> > > > I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
>
> > > > I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
> > > > groups
> > > > spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
> > > > thread!-D)-
>
> > > There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
> > > translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
> > > yours.
>
> > That's right, I had to open a gmail account to be able to post here
> > and to read the full thread (I don't see my G posts on my standard
> > ISP account).
> > Anyway, that's not very important )
> > The post I refered to was the one including this proposal:
>
> > 'To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
> > earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the
> > thorough pratice of severe suspensions.'
>
> > And, don't mind, I understand why you think that was 'literal'
> > but there were real efforts to carry the original underlying
> > 'venom' I thought Satie wanted to inject :-)
>
> > Cheers.-

Thanks Peter for your detailed answer, I mostly agree
with what you wrote, I'll just make a few precisions and
close the door ;-) And, do not imagine I'm trying and
make a point, that'll only be small precisions, not tempting
theories :-)

> "Suspension" is a technical term in music theory, so it should be
> avoided here.

Well, that exactly was the reason why I used it, the idea of
"suspended in time" as well as the 'rarity' of its use in this
way, that was supposed to give a major hint at what was Satie
'real' idea behind the doctoral paraphernalia.
Note that your advice here invalids most of the idea
that this version was 'too much literal'
("_literal_ translation, like all those above")

> Also, in non-technical English, it doesn't carry the
> sense of 'immobility'.

This is an important point you make here as I didn't imagine
that the translation would be aiming "non-technical" readers,
hence I missed to consider being crystal clear to every eye
(and I still think that'd be a 'gageure' to try it on such a text)
Besides, being french I'm certainly prone to big blunds on
terms when I try a wild run in the fr->en way, and I thank you
for the time you spend on that tiny thread

> Moreover, "immobility" really can't be used in
> the plural in English, which may be the greatest problem in rendering
> the passage. People can be in "states of immobility" from time to
> time, but they can't be in "immobilities."

Correct, (please note I did not use that term :^) and the same
'nono' is invalid as well in french language (I'd conceived
that was the 'hint' Satie gave to the readers and that was
another enticement for me to try and 'hijack' a
musical term ("suspension") which could bear the idea of
the meaning as well as bringing up the "Ah ah!" so Satie
was just very mad about his girlfriend and compared that
state of mind to being 'full of vacuum' (pardon the oxymoron)
'suspended in void' like 'croché sur une patère' (for which
I would dare to hijack a "semi-quivered on a peg" [not a typo] ;-)

> Of the translations we've seen here, the one that comes closest to
> being an English rendering of the original is the first one quoted
> above,

I do agree with you, though I thought it was too much a "literal"
version
then decided to try on something 'fresher' )

> except for the last two words, "serious immobilities," which
> make no sense at all. As an experienced and published translator from
> French, I have found that it is usually unwise to use the English
> equivalent of a borrowed French word -- the nuances have almost always
> diverged over the centuries since the word was first adopted into
> English.

And I do fully agree on that point too, we're all very tired to see
that many publishers by now can't see a difference between an
automatic translation engine and a real copy.

thank you Peter T. for the heads up.

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"Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AEF6m.2132$ - 2...
> Can anyone hereabouts improve on my translation of something...?
>
> Hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm anxious not to miss shades of
> meaning. The original was probably written around 1893:
>
> "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> My best shot at an exact-as-possible translation is:
>
> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> immobilities"
>
> Unfortunately, this seems rather obscure and eccentric...
>
> Any thoughts...?
>
> Ta!
>
> Sp.
>