On 2009-07-14, Alan Smaill <smaill@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> writes:
>> "Loki Harfagr" <l0k1@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
>>
>> "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
>> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>>
>> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
>> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
>> immobilities"
>>
>> "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
>> prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
>> suspensions"
>>
>> "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
>> useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
>> immobilities"
>>
>> -------
>> Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
>> version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
>> that aren't there...?
>
> all fine, except the "grave/serious immobilities";
> I'd go for "lengthy periods of stillness" -- something that speaks
> more of meditation, anyway.

There's always the temptation to make the translation idiomatic
but the original ("immobilités sérieuses") isn't. At least it
isn't now, but I doubt it was at the time.

Also, the "se" in "pour se jouer" feels superfluous. Not sure
whether it's an archaism or a satie-ism.

--
André Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
With great power come great heat sinks.

Spence... wrote:
> "Loki Harfagr" <l0k1@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
>
>
> Thanks for these, Loki!!
>
> So far, then, we have:
>
> "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> immobilities"
>
> "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> suspensions"
>
> "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> immobilities"
>
> -------
> Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
> version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
> that aren't there...?
>
> Ta!

I assume this is in reference to Vexations?

"mark steven brooks" <elaterium@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4a5dea69$0$
>
> I assume this is in reference to Vexations?
>

Yes!

I'm bothered by the uncertain quality of the translations I've seen in the
outside world...

Sp.

"Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...

So far, then, we have:

"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"

"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
immobilities"

"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
suspensions"

"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
immobilities"

"To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."

and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
stillness' or something like that...

I think we're getting somewhere, people!!

Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
far...? Anything....?

Sp.

On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> *So far, then, we have:
>
> *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> *immobilities"
>
> *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> *suspensions"
>
> *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> *immobilities"
>
> "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> stillness' or something like that...
>
> I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> far...? Anything....?
>
> Sp.

That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
all those above, is wildly inappropriate.

Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> writes:

> On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> > news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
> >
> > *So far, then, we have:
> >
> > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
> >
> > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > *immobilities"
> >
> > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > *suspensions"
> >
> > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > *immobilities"
> >
> > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
> >
> > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > stillness' or something like that...
> >
> > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
> >
> > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > far...? Anything....?
> >
> > Sp.
>
> That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> all those above, is wildly inappropriate.

On the contrary, it is deliberately, vexatiously, pedantically
just what is called for.

> Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
> appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?

I sort of assumed that the preparation is for the sake of the performer,
not the audience.

btw, there is just a hint of Stockhausen's instructions for preparing
for one of his improvisatory pieces, which involves not eating for
several days etc, keeping in a still environment, etc etc.

Satie saw it all coming ...

--
Alan Smaill

On Jul 16, 5:05*am, Alan Smaill <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> > > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > *immobilities"
>
> > > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice ofsevere
> > > *suspensions"
>
> > > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > *immobilities"
>
> > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthyperiods of
> > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting acrossso
> > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > Sp.
>
> > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> On the contrary, it is deliberately, vexatiously, pedantically
> just what is called for.
>
> > Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
> > appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?
>
> I sort of assumed that the preparation is for the sake of the performer,
> not the audience.
>
> btw, there is just a hint of Stockhausen's instructions for preparing
> for one of his improvisatory pieces, which involves not eating for
> several days etc, keeping in a still environment, etc etc.
>
> Satie saw it all coming ...

Or maybe Stockhausen knew his Satie ... and his Cage ...

Peter T. Daniels (in rec.music.classical.contemporary):

> On Jul 16, 5:05Â*am, Alan Smaill <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 15, 3:26Â*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> > >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
>>
>> > > So far, then, we have:
>>
>> > > "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer
>> > > au préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités
>> > > sérieuses"
>>
>> > > "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be
>> > > advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence,
>> > > by serious immobilities"
>>
>> > > "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
>> > > earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough
>> > > pratice of severe suspensions"
>>
>> > > "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it
>> > > will be useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence,
>> > > by grave immobilities"
>>
>> > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to
>> > > prepare in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious
>> > > motionlessness."
>>
>> > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy
>> > > periods of stillness' or something like that...
>>
>> > > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>>
>> > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across
>> > > so far...? Anything....?
>>
>> > > Sp.
>>
>> > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
>> > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>>
>> On the contrary, it is deliberately, vexatiously, pedantically
>> just what is called for.
>>
>> > Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
>> > appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?
>>
>> I sort of assumed that the preparation is for the sake of the performer,
>> not the audience.
>>
>> btw, there is just a hint of Stockhausen's instructions for preparing
>> for one of his improvisatory pieces, which involves not eating for
>> several days etc, keeping in a still environment, etc etc.
>>
>> Satie saw it all coming ...
>
> Or maybe Stockhausen knew his Satie ... and his Cage ...

It took its time. He was more into Debussy, I think. And he had serious
problems with Cage.

Joachim

On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > *immobilities"
>
> > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > *suspensions"
>
> > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > *immobilities"
>
> > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > far...? Anything....?
>
> > Sp.
>
> That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> all those above, is wildly inappropriate.


I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
really
tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
intention
I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)

I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
groups
spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
thread!-D)

On Jul 25, 5:25*am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
> On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 15, 3:26*pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> > >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2.3487@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> > > *So far, then, we have:
>
> > > *"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > > *préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > *"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > *to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > *immobilities"
>
> > > *"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > *prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice ofsevere
> > > *suspensions"
>
> > > *"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > *useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > *immobilities"
>
> > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthyperiods of
> > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting acrossso
> > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > Sp.
>
> > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
> really
> tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
> gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
> intention
> I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
>
> I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
> groups
> spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
> thread!-D)-

There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
yours.